This has been fun but I have a rule that I don't argue with anyone online for more than 24 hours so I'm done. I leave with these closing thoughts:
1. Just because people think teens shouldn't be engaging in certain activities doesn't mean that teens won't do those things.
2. If they are reading/hearing/watching/doing things some adults don't approve of, chances are that ignoring the problem or telling them it's wrong won't work. Educating them about how to be as safe as possible and think through their decisions is the most realistic way of improving teen sexual health outcomes.
3. There are two ways of looking at this problem. One is from a moral standpoint that asserts that one person's beliefs are right and should be imposed upon others because they know best (or their god knows best). The other is from the moral standpoint that people have a basic right to information and to make their own choices, free from shame or bias, even if the person giving out the information doesn't always agree with those choices.
Thanks for the debate. I commend the FFCS Superintendent and the principal for sticking to what they believe is right for teens.
1. Clearly PP differs from you in terms of when they believe a pregnancy starts - as do millions of others. It is my understanding however, that the zygote does not begin to multiply until after it has implanted. Just to let you know.
2. Taking one's temperature and measuring cervical mucous can be effective means of contraception but it is not as effective, nor is it as easy to use for anyone, let alone adolescents, especially when we're busy teaching them through abstinence-only education that their genitals are dirty things that they must never touch or let anyone else touch. In my view, PP is doing the responsible thing by pointing to one of the easiest, cheapest and most common ways of protection.
3. When I referred to consenting adults, I was speaking specifically of the things that you were asserting PP was doing to children - which they weren't because they occurred on college campuses (there are no dildo ring tosses in high schools). My guess is that PP recognizes that teens are having oral sex, vaginal sex and anal sex and instead of shaming teens for what they're already doing, they chose knowledge. Teens know how to use Google. If they want to learn about anal sex, they can learn about it from porn, or they can actually learn about it. I'd pick the latter. Even though you might think its an activity that minors shouldn't be engaging in, at some point, you need to accept that fact that some will. I've talked to hundreds of adults who know all about anal sex and decide not to do it, I believe (and studies show) that teens are capable of making the same rational decisions as adults when given all of the (correct) information.
4. By the information that you would want to give out I mean your clear stance against giving as much information as possible to teens. If you're against outercourse, I'm making the assumption that you're also against intercourse. If you support educating teens, as reputable organizations such as the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and the American Academy of Pediatrics would (accurately and completely, as PP does) then please correct me.
5. As for studies: Emerging Answers, 2007. Mathematica 2006. Waxman, 2004 and anything by John Santelli. And those are just the ones I know off the top of my head. The Mathematica study was sponsored by the Bush Administration and still found that comprehensive sex ed (as taught by PP) is effective in delaying sex AND promoting safer sex.
Here's the bottom line: we can keep arguing about this on this website forever but we fundamentally disagree about what the point of sex education is, what the content of it should be, and what teens really need. I doubt that reading a study is going to change your mind but I'd certainly love it if it would.
"that is is involved in gravely scandelous (sic) behavior especially around children"
Many of the things that you've mentioned, deprofundis, are things that PP has been a part of for consenting adults ONLY. The sex fair you mention was at Tufts which last time I checked was a University, not an elementary school. PP knows the difference between what is appropriate for an 18 year old and what is appropriate for a 12 year old - as we all do. Your knee jerk reaction to things you wouldn't have wanted on your college campus doesn't mean it's wrong or inappropriate for certain people to partake of them, when they're legal adults.
It seems like what you really disagree with here is the fundamental difference between how PP views sex and how you view it. Some people feel that, as long as it is consensual and safe, most sexual activity is alright. Others feel that their own personal opinions about sex are what everyone should think, regardless of age or gender or sexual expression. If you can't be accepting of the diversity of sexual expression (even sexual expression that you happen to find disgusting) I don't think you should be allowed to dictate what other people can and can't do with their bodies.
Lastly - as for medical accuracy, I will point again to rigorous, peer reviewed, published, experimental study designs which have proven time and again that the information PP gives out is accurate and HELPS while the information deprofundis would want to give out is inaccurate and HURTS. I can cite actual, non-biased sources for these arguments, not stories pulled from clearly one-sided websites preaching to the sex-negative, shame-based choir.
Zumchak: Kids certainly are not learning your three points from abstinence-only education. PP's curriculum does not encourage sex but encourages waiting and then safety.
If PP didn't exist to give women safe abortions, there would be thousands of women dying from sepsis instead of thousands of dollars spent on a safe procedure. Besides, don't let your feelings about abortion get in the way of good sex ed.
Let's all try a little pragmatism on for size. 97% of people will have sex before they get married. Should we instill shame in them and give them misinformation or should we recognize the reality and try to help people be as safe as possible? It seems like that's what the superintendent is trying to do for FFCS - we're lucky to have him.
It's nice that there are so many parents in the Fonda/Fultonville district who actually will talk with their children about sex. The incredibly high pregnancy rate leads me to believe that right now, parents are not having these conversations effectively; if they are having them at all.
Also, where is all of this hostility towards sexual pleasure coming from? Chances are, children around 13 years old already know that most of the world thinks sex is fun. They're not going to learn that from a sex education class. What they are going to learn is why to wait and how to protect themselves if they decide not to wait. You can't lock up your kids until they get married so why not give them the tools to stay healthy?
Rigorous, scientific studies show that abstinence-only education does not work. Studies also show that comprehensive sex ed classes do work and do NOT encourage more sexual activity as people here assume. The fact that this article only gives authority to a few dissenting voices betrays its bias.
Maybe instead of sitting on our moral high horses, we should look at the realities of our children's lives and equip them with everything they need to meet those challenges head on, without shame.
Posted on May 23 at 9:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This has been fun but I have a rule that I don't argue with anyone online for more than 24 hours so I'm done. I leave with these closing thoughts:
1. Just because people think teens shouldn't be engaging in certain activities doesn't mean that teens won't do those things.
2. If they are reading/hearing/watching/doing things some adults don't approve of, chances are that ignoring the problem or telling them it's wrong won't work. Educating them about how to be as safe as possible and think through their decisions is the most realistic way of improving teen sexual health outcomes.
3. There are two ways of looking at this problem. One is from a moral standpoint that asserts that one person's beliefs are right and should be imposed upon others because they know best (or their god knows best). The other is from the moral standpoint that people have a basic right to information and to make their own choices, free from shame or bias, even if the person giving out the information doesn't always agree with those choices.
Thanks for the debate. I commend the FFCS Superintendent and the principal for sticking to what they believe is right for teens.
On Parents criticize sex ed plans